firewood
Jun 22, 10:52 PM
I'm confident that you will not see any computers running both Mac OS and iOS.
I see one every day.
Just run a UIKit app in the iPad Simulator (from the free Developer SDK) on your iMac. There's even 3rd party code that will allow you to use the multi-touch on your iPad to control your app in the Simulator on the iMac. And some apps can run 10X faster and have a bunch more memory available when running on the Simulator.
I have a couple experimental apps that look and feel better this way than their Mac native versions.
It's even possible for a developer to package compiled Simulator apps for other people to run on their Macs, but Apple hasn't made that process easy (yet!).
I see one every day.
Just run a UIKit app in the iPad Simulator (from the free Developer SDK) on your iMac. There's even 3rd party code that will allow you to use the multi-touch on your iPad to control your app in the Simulator on the iMac. And some apps can run 10X faster and have a bunch more memory available when running on the Simulator.
I have a couple experimental apps that look and feel better this way than their Mac native versions.
It's even possible for a developer to package compiled Simulator apps for other people to run on their Macs, but Apple hasn't made that process easy (yet!).
r.j.s
Mar 20, 01:41 PM
I assume the mushroom is from the initial warhead explosion, and the rest is the resultant exploding ammunition.
Probably. Dust and debris fills the void created by the pressure from the initial explosion to form the mushroom. The rest is from the primary charge or secondary explosions, e.g. fuel.
Probably. Dust and debris fills the void created by the pressure from the initial explosion to form the mushroom. The rest is from the primary charge or secondary explosions, e.g. fuel.
.jpg "Ell/Nikki - Running Scared")
dongmin
Jan 12, 12:42 AM
Here is some info on the wireless power adaptor technlogy I mentioned previously that I believe will be incorporated into a new low power mac that does not ever need to be plugged in. There are two trains of thought. One is that it will be set atop a wireless power pad that will conduct the electricity a mere inch or two to 'charge' or power the mac without any cable or outside connectors and the other which has been demonstrated by a few other companies including involves electricity being sent through the air similar to a wireless signal, except the laptop actually charges without any wires at all - cordless electricity as it were.
Here's some links to some past posts discussing the technlogy.
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/02/16/rumors-docking-and-charging-by-induction/
http://www.louisgray.com/live/2007/02/its-time-to-make-power-wireless-and.html
Finally, a company called Powercast at www.powercastco.com demonstrated this wireless power transfer not too long ago by lighting a bulb up with absolutely no wires. Pretty cool and inevitable if you ask me.
This is what I'm guessing will be the hot new product - the MacAir - no cords. Power without wires.
BFMApple has some patents that deal with induction-based charging for your i-gadgets:
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/15/patent-wireless-iphone-charging-station/
There's also wireless firewire that stirred a lot of discussion three years ago:
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20040511S0001
Here's some links to some past posts discussing the technlogy.
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/02/16/rumors-docking-and-charging-by-induction/
http://www.louisgray.com/live/2007/02/its-time-to-make-power-wireless-and.html
Finally, a company called Powercast at www.powercastco.com demonstrated this wireless power transfer not too long ago by lighting a bulb up with absolutely no wires. Pretty cool and inevitable if you ask me.
This is what I'm guessing will be the hot new product - the MacAir - no cords. Power without wires.
BFMApple has some patents that deal with induction-based charging for your i-gadgets:
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/15/patent-wireless-iphone-charging-station/
There's also wireless firewire that stirred a lot of discussion three years ago:
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20040511S0001
kadajawi
Aug 31, 06:55 AM
Aye, now we only need the rest of the computer. Basically, just build a Mac Mini in a mini/midi tower, with a mainboard that allows you to install new hardware. And try to keep the price low.
iUserz
Sep 21, 03:04 AM
I have had absolutely zero problems with my iPhone 4 and love it to death. 'course I'm in Canada where we're not tied to AT&T but I haven't had a single dropped call.
I'll make my own decision - don't need CR to hold my hand...
I'll make my own decision - don't need CR to hold my hand...
plinden
Jul 19, 03:53 PM
Other than recently, how often have Mac sales been in the million+ a quarter? Didn't 2002 or something only see that many shipped the entire year?
No - according to http://www.pegasus3d.com/total_share.html Mac sales have been above 3 million since 1998. But it looks like Apple's on track for > 5 million in the highest sales figures ever.
Where are all you "Apple is doomed" sayers now?:p :D
Apples sells ~4 Million Macs per quater. That's ~16 Mio a year. Given a 4 Year Life time that's "only" ~64 Mio Mac's installed, maybe more. That should be enough to keep developers happy.
No, please re-read the figures - it's 1.327 million Macs for the last quarter.
No - according to http://www.pegasus3d.com/total_share.html Mac sales have been above 3 million since 1998. But it looks like Apple's on track for > 5 million in the highest sales figures ever.
Where are all you "Apple is doomed" sayers now?:p :D
Apples sells ~4 Million Macs per quater. That's ~16 Mio a year. Given a 4 Year Life time that's "only" ~64 Mio Mac's installed, maybe more. That should be enough to keep developers happy.
No, please re-read the figures - it's 1.327 million Macs for the last quarter.
evilgEEk
Sep 6, 01:03 PM
I've been waiting for this update for a few weeks now, need to get a new computer for the office. But now I'm really torn between the mini and the low end iMac.
Frankly I'm thinkin the iMac. :confused:
Frankly I'm thinkin the iMac. :confused:
econgeek
Apr 12, 08:46 PM
I just finished reading the old thread, only to discover that there was a new story on MacRumors and a new thread... so here's my comments:
For context, I started cutting film back when I had two reels and a viewer in the middle... and I had to hand crank it to preview. Cutting involved a nice razor embedded in plastic and a splice was a fancy piece of tape with sprocket holes in it. I am a software developer and I've long lamented how early editing software has always been based on just replicating the film process electronically.
Then I started to meet the Video People. Video People are much of the industry- the editors for TV news, the editors for TV programs, the wedding photographers. Just about everbody but filmmakers, but also including a lot of the lower end film production support (eg: editing houses.) The Video People have been taught rules of thumb. They are not very technical. They know how it is "supposed" to work because that's what they learned in colllege or at their first jobs. They are all stuck in specific workflows and specific ways of doing things.
They output to tape because they cannot grasp the concept that tape became obsolete a decade ago (and the ones who can grasp it are stuck dealing with others who demand delivery and archive on tape.)
These are the same people who think that iMovie was a joke when it was reworked. I loved it. I was happy to see a tiny, little step forward in working with video. Apple thought just a smidgen different and people went crazy. Sure it had less features than the previous one-- but creativity was so unleashed that the minor hassle of working around those features not being built in was no big deal.
I think Apple is skating to where the puck is. Apple is going to release a Final Cut focused on the direction the industry is heading. If Apple does its job right, the Video People will be screaming their heads off. But the 20 year olds who don't know anything but "want to make movies" (and are more serious than those willing to limit themselves to iMovie) will take it and start cutting the next generation of indie features.
Maybe Apple will provide all the features the Video People are threatening to switch to Avid if they don't get (as if it is some sort of a hostage demand -- "I'm going to post to macrumors forums and threaten to switch to Avid! That will teach them!". I've met many people in many industries but the Video People are the most rigid, the least genuinely understanding of technology and the most fixated on rules of thumb and rigid perspectives about How Things Should Work. Seriously, computer illiterate grease monkies are more flexible and open to new technology, in my experience. The Video People think they are Pros (because hey earn a salary) and therefore, anything that causes them to stretch or adjust or re-think the processes they use is "bad". The idea that something might be more efficient or produce a better quality result seems unfathomable.
If Apple has spent the last several years working on something signficant (which is the implication of the claims Apple has "abandoned their pro products") then the Video People are going to be screaming bloody murder in a couple hours. I look forward to it.
(PS- I didn't call anyone in this thread a Video People. You can choose to take offense if you wish, but I'm talking about people I've met and had to work with in the industry, not posters to this thread whom I do not know personally.)
For context, I started cutting film back when I had two reels and a viewer in the middle... and I had to hand crank it to preview. Cutting involved a nice razor embedded in plastic and a splice was a fancy piece of tape with sprocket holes in it. I am a software developer and I've long lamented how early editing software has always been based on just replicating the film process electronically.
Then I started to meet the Video People. Video People are much of the industry- the editors for TV news, the editors for TV programs, the wedding photographers. Just about everbody but filmmakers, but also including a lot of the lower end film production support (eg: editing houses.) The Video People have been taught rules of thumb. They are not very technical. They know how it is "supposed" to work because that's what they learned in colllege or at their first jobs. They are all stuck in specific workflows and specific ways of doing things.
They output to tape because they cannot grasp the concept that tape became obsolete a decade ago (and the ones who can grasp it are stuck dealing with others who demand delivery and archive on tape.)
These are the same people who think that iMovie was a joke when it was reworked. I loved it. I was happy to see a tiny, little step forward in working with video. Apple thought just a smidgen different and people went crazy. Sure it had less features than the previous one-- but creativity was so unleashed that the minor hassle of working around those features not being built in was no big deal.
I think Apple is skating to where the puck is. Apple is going to release a Final Cut focused on the direction the industry is heading. If Apple does its job right, the Video People will be screaming their heads off. But the 20 year olds who don't know anything but "want to make movies" (and are more serious than those willing to limit themselves to iMovie) will take it and start cutting the next generation of indie features.
Maybe Apple will provide all the features the Video People are threatening to switch to Avid if they don't get (as if it is some sort of a hostage demand -- "I'm going to post to macrumors forums and threaten to switch to Avid! That will teach them!". I've met many people in many industries but the Video People are the most rigid, the least genuinely understanding of technology and the most fixated on rules of thumb and rigid perspectives about How Things Should Work. Seriously, computer illiterate grease monkies are more flexible and open to new technology, in my experience. The Video People think they are Pros (because hey earn a salary) and therefore, anything that causes them to stretch or adjust or re-think the processes they use is "bad". The idea that something might be more efficient or produce a better quality result seems unfathomable.
If Apple has spent the last several years working on something signficant (which is the implication of the claims Apple has "abandoned their pro products") then the Video People are going to be screaming bloody murder in a couple hours. I look forward to it.
(PS- I didn't call anyone in this thread a Video People. You can choose to take offense if you wish, but I'm talking about people I've met and had to work with in the industry, not posters to this thread whom I do not know personally.)
roland.g
Sep 1, 12:49 PM
23" Imac is a great size. Add HD resolution then that's great.
I would love to see dual display support. But I highly doubt they will allow it. Apple wants to make sure there is a distinction between their consumer and pro line. It would be cool to have the Imac 23" with a 23" Cinema display next to it.
You can already do that. The current iMacs support dual display, just not the 30"
I would love to see dual display support. But I highly doubt they will allow it. Apple wants to make sure there is a distinction between their consumer and pro line. It would be cool to have the Imac 23" with a 23" Cinema display next to it.
You can already do that. The current iMacs support dual display, just not the 30"
MacBoobsPro
Aug 7, 04:33 AM
Just need to find something to pass the time until 3 am.:rolleyes:
Not too brag or anything :D but it works out great for us in UK. Get in from work 5.30pm / open a beer / macrumors / keynote 6pm / tears of joy / rob bank 9pm / buy mac pro :D
Not too brag or anything :D but it works out great for us in UK. Get in from work 5.30pm / open a beer / macrumors / keynote 6pm / tears of joy / rob bank 9pm / buy mac pro :D
gakh
Oct 23, 03:00 PM
I'll probably be waiting awhile, but I won't be purchasing a MBP until it has the Core 2 Quadro, built-in bootable flash memory for quicker booting times, and a hard drive that can be easily swapped out like the MB line currently has. It makes more sense to me to have a Professional line of notebooks with a hard drive that can be replaced easily than having consumer notebooks with this feature. After a user returns with my company's shared notebook, I could simply swap out the HD with a cleanly imaged HD to give to the next user. Why would the average home user or a non-tech college student with a MB need to swap out their drives through the battery compartment, but not a professional user? Steve - I'm not asking for a lot here.
Until I see these features or at least two of the three, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade just yet.
Gene Huller
http://genehuller.com
Until I see these features or at least two of the three, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade just yet.
Gene Huller
http://genehuller.com
standingquiet
Jan 10, 03:49 PM
Well traded the Subaru today time to get something a bit more sensible so i got a 2007 Ford Focus ST-2.
Done all the paper work today and pick her up tomorrow afternoon, cant wait.
Matt
Done all the paper work today and pick her up tomorrow afternoon, cant wait.
Matt
hyperpasta
Sep 6, 08:43 AM
Poop. And I was hoping for a $100 price drop.
I see why Apple came out with a 24-inch iMac the same day... we can't complain! :p
I see why Apple came out with a 24-inch iMac the same day... we can't complain! :p
raymondkerr
Feb 23, 10:09 AM
Fantastic setup, would love to get those speakers, I'm in the UK also, what make/model of speakers ?
Thanks
Raymond
Thanks
Raymond
Blasphemic
Jan 7, 03:58 AM
Here's my first and only car I've ever "owned". It's a 1.2 litre Corsa SXI 2001. It was initially bought as a learner car for me and my sisters to start learning in. I passed 2 years ago, and since then it's only me who's been driving the car. My big sister has her own car now, and my little sister won't be starting for another year.
So at the moment it's just me who's using the car, so I get to use it in University - which makes me very lucky I believe.
And I also took this picture this morning. A fresh wave of snow has just arrived in Wales, just when I thought I had seen the last of the snow last week.:(
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/706/corsab.jpg
Is that a Vauxhall Corsa i see there? great little car, not very cool i admit but it just keeps on going =)
So at the moment it's just me who's using the car, so I get to use it in University - which makes me very lucky I believe.
And I also took this picture this morning. A fresh wave of snow has just arrived in Wales, just when I thought I had seen the last of the snow last week.:(
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/706/corsab.jpg
Is that a Vauxhall Corsa i see there? great little car, not very cool i admit but it just keeps on going =)
newrigel
Nov 16, 11:03 PM
That really depends on the program, on how "parallelizable" the application is.
The simplest way to think of it is like this: Let's say you have a program that first has to calculate A. Then, when it's done that, it uses the result of A to calculate B. Then, when it's done that, uses the result of B to calculate C, then C to D, and so on. That's a *serial* problem there. The calculation of B can't begin until A is done, so it doesn't matter how many processors you have running, all computation is held up on one spot.
On the other hand, let's say you have an application that needs to calculate A, B, C and D, but those four values are not dependent on each other at all. In that case, you can use four processors at the same time, to calculate all four values at the same time.
Think of it like baking a cake. You can't start putting on the icing until the cake is done baking. And you can't start baking the cake until the ingredients are all mixed together. But you can have people simultaneously getting out and measuring the ingredients.
So that problem is partially parallelizable, but the majority of its workload is a serial process.
Some software applications, just by their very nature, will never be able to do anything useful with multiple processors.
CONTENT CREATION PRO'S will see the benefit! Like DAW's host running multiple plugins and virtual instruments etc. Video guy's that are rendering in the background while doing a file format conversion task while @ the same time doing a cut copy paste edit on some video... Any processes that are CONCURRENT! THESE are the things that will take advantage of multiple cores... the kids on myspace farting around on the net emailing and such are really useless for multiple cores and us pro guy's NEED this multitasking power... BRING IT ON!
The simplest way to think of it is like this: Let's say you have a program that first has to calculate A. Then, when it's done that, it uses the result of A to calculate B. Then, when it's done that, uses the result of B to calculate C, then C to D, and so on. That's a *serial* problem there. The calculation of B can't begin until A is done, so it doesn't matter how many processors you have running, all computation is held up on one spot.
On the other hand, let's say you have an application that needs to calculate A, B, C and D, but those four values are not dependent on each other at all. In that case, you can use four processors at the same time, to calculate all four values at the same time.
Think of it like baking a cake. You can't start putting on the icing until the cake is done baking. And you can't start baking the cake until the ingredients are all mixed together. But you can have people simultaneously getting out and measuring the ingredients.
So that problem is partially parallelizable, but the majority of its workload is a serial process.
Some software applications, just by their very nature, will never be able to do anything useful with multiple processors.
CONTENT CREATION PRO'S will see the benefit! Like DAW's host running multiple plugins and virtual instruments etc. Video guy's that are rendering in the background while doing a file format conversion task while @ the same time doing a cut copy paste edit on some video... Any processes that are CONCURRENT! THESE are the things that will take advantage of multiple cores... the kids on myspace farting around on the net emailing and such are really useless for multiple cores and us pro guy's NEED this multitasking power... BRING IT ON!
ojwk
Jan 12, 08:22 AM
I don't see how the external optical drive falls into the category of things to be "defended." The others, sure, because you don't have the choice of the name, the graphics card, or mid-tower. But so far the rumours suggest the external optical drive is optional (as in, buy a MacBook or MacBook Pro with built-in drive - this isn't across the product line). What I see are people hoping for a feature: a lighter notebook.
What I'm saying is that people are condoning Apple's decision to have an optional external optical drive just like everything else despite Apple from suggesting nothing of the sort. My point is that people will condone any decision Apple makes for no good reason.
What I'm saying is that people are condoning Apple's decision to have an optional external optical drive just like everything else despite Apple from suggesting nothing of the sort. My point is that people will condone any decision Apple makes for no good reason.
poppe
Sep 1, 12:46 PM
Hmm... the problem with that line-up is that when consumers see the shiny new advert saying "Meet the new iMacs" they'll look at the clock speeds and say "What new iMacs?". I think it would be reasonable for Apple to offer...
17" iMac - $1,199 - 2 GHz, X1650 Pro 128 MB
20" iMac - $1,699 - 2.16 GHz, X1650 Pro 256 MB
23" iMac - $2,199 - 2.33 GHz, X1650 Pro 256 MB
If the Mac Mini and the MB would have stayed under 500 and 1000 repsectively then I would have said you are so wrong, but because they didn't I wouldn't be surprised if they came out with one just above 1999.
17" iMac - $1,199 - 2 GHz, X1650 Pro 128 MB
20" iMac - $1,699 - 2.16 GHz, X1650 Pro 256 MB
23" iMac - $2,199 - 2.33 GHz, X1650 Pro 256 MB
If the Mac Mini and the MB would have stayed under 500 and 1000 repsectively then I would have said you are so wrong, but because they didn't I wouldn't be surprised if they came out with one just above 1999.
bmustaf
Sep 14, 09:29 AM
I love my iPhone 4, I tend to really love the way Apple does business, but I am not naive, either. I am glad CR is sticking to their principles & original statement and in doing so, holding Apple's feet to the fire however they can.
Let's be very clear - Apple can and will do whatever is most expedient for it. Not necessarily a bad thing because in a perfect market economy consumer preference will find what is good for the consumer to be good for Apple - but I think it's pretty clear that "academic" view of it doesn't always translate into reality.
So, just like the people who threw fits when Apple dropped the price of the iPhone original based on volume sustained by high-price-paying early adopters and got Steve to at least offer some small concession of $100 gift cards to his own store, people/organizations need to keep Apple accountable.
If everyone/every organization falls in line to what Apple tells us we must think/accept, the tail is wagging the dog and the theory of the free market falls apart - let alone the practice.
Written on my MBP, syncing my iPhone 4, my iPad, my iPhone 3GS, and my Magic Mouse right before I got in to my car with a neat little Apple sticker on the back. Just like I love my government, I also fear it. I love my Apple, Inc, but I also know they'll screw me as soon as it becomes convenient for them.
Let's be very clear - Apple can and will do whatever is most expedient for it. Not necessarily a bad thing because in a perfect market economy consumer preference will find what is good for the consumer to be good for Apple - but I think it's pretty clear that "academic" view of it doesn't always translate into reality.
So, just like the people who threw fits when Apple dropped the price of the iPhone original based on volume sustained by high-price-paying early adopters and got Steve to at least offer some small concession of $100 gift cards to his own store, people/organizations need to keep Apple accountable.
If everyone/every organization falls in line to what Apple tells us we must think/accept, the tail is wagging the dog and the theory of the free market falls apart - let alone the practice.
Written on my MBP, syncing my iPhone 4, my iPad, my iPhone 3GS, and my Magic Mouse right before I got in to my car with a neat little Apple sticker on the back. Just like I love my government, I also fear it. I love my Apple, Inc, but I also know they'll screw me as soon as it becomes convenient for them.
Benguitar
Nov 24, 02:02 PM
I do believe that's a gun case.
Hm, Didn't think of that. I got it at a camera store. :rolleyes::D
This will make airline travel more interesting.
Hm, Didn't think of that. I got it at a camera store. :rolleyes::D
This will make airline travel more interesting.
mandis
Mar 25, 03:55 PM
At this pace the iPad3 will come close to the PS3 in terms of performance when it is released next year...
I'm really impressed by the increasing performance of the ARM architecture. Mind you all this is coming from a tiny SoC which doesn't require cooling or any substantial power intake.
Impressive indeed!
Maybe we'll be seeing ARM based Desktops by the end of the decade... or sooner?
I'm really impressed by the increasing performance of the ARM architecture. Mind you all this is coming from a tiny SoC which doesn't require cooling or any substantial power intake.
Impressive indeed!
Maybe we'll be seeing ARM based Desktops by the end of the decade... or sooner?
kdarling
Apr 22, 10:40 PM
A HUGE stretch. There are other, easier ways of finding people.
Not this easy.
It's not so much about finding people at any moment, but knowing where they've been. And this file makes it dirt simple to find that out.
Undercover agents? LOL WTF is this, Russia House? I'm pretty sure they're "UNDERCOVER", meaning, tracking them would be useless, since there is nothing advertising their personal information. All anyone would get is random location data that could belong to anyone.
A guy in your terrorist cell claims he's not FBI, because he's never been to Washington DC. Even his phone contacts are all people nowhere near there. Yet what if his cache list says otherwise. He's probably dead.
Dumbest examples ever. And you're a smart guy otherwise, so it's surprising.
By now, you also know that I always speak from personal experience when possible.
I was Military Intelligence and NSA in the heart of the Cold War. I did undercover field work at times. This kind of easy info is both priceless and dangerous. I've seen field officers compromised in almost every way imaginable. My scenarios are not stretches by any means.
Not this easy.
It's not so much about finding people at any moment, but knowing where they've been. And this file makes it dirt simple to find that out.
Undercover agents? LOL WTF is this, Russia House? I'm pretty sure they're "UNDERCOVER", meaning, tracking them would be useless, since there is nothing advertising their personal information. All anyone would get is random location data that could belong to anyone.
A guy in your terrorist cell claims he's not FBI, because he's never been to Washington DC. Even his phone contacts are all people nowhere near there. Yet what if his cache list says otherwise. He's probably dead.
Dumbest examples ever. And you're a smart guy otherwise, so it's surprising.
By now, you also know that I always speak from personal experience when possible.
I was Military Intelligence and NSA in the heart of the Cold War. I did undercover field work at times. This kind of easy info is both priceless and dangerous. I've seen field officers compromised in almost every way imaginable. My scenarios are not stretches by any means.
cocky jeremy
Apr 2, 03:20 AM
AirDrop wasn't on Preview 1 for me. (2008 iMac, C2D) and is now showing up on Preview 2. This wasn't specific folder older models, i don't think. It appeared to be random, as far as the machines it did and didn't show up on. So i'm not sure about others..
bretm
Sep 7, 10:16 AM
Netflix is made for movies! I love Apple but they'll never do for movies what Netflix has! In the past 5 weeks, I've had 21 movies delivered to my door. I'm on the 3-at-a-time plan (unlimited for $17.99/mo). Also, I can buy tons of used DVDs for $5.99 that are 100% guaranteed!
I think a dollar a song is one thing because you can pick and choose from an album so the trade-off for quality is justified. However, $9.99 is a lot to ask for something that is very low quality, only looks really good an a 2" screen and takes a long time to download. Right now, we don't even know if you can back the file up or burn to a DVD. I think Apple will do ok, but I don't see it being the same bonanza that that music was/is.
Netflix will slow down your service most likely. You'll start to see online that the movies you've sent back haven't quite cleared yet and that movies being sent out start to slow down.
Unless things have changed recently. But that's what they've done in the past.
I think a dollar a song is one thing because you can pick and choose from an album so the trade-off for quality is justified. However, $9.99 is a lot to ask for something that is very low quality, only looks really good an a 2" screen and takes a long time to download. Right now, we don't even know if you can back the file up or burn to a DVD. I think Apple will do ok, but I don't see it being the same bonanza that that music was/is.
Netflix will slow down your service most likely. You'll start to see online that the movies you've sent back haven't quite cleared yet and that movies being sent out start to slow down.
Unless things have changed recently. But that's what they've done in the past.